Post by Tad on Aug 15, 2008 4:26:38 GMT -5
On Aug 13, 1:44 PM, I've used my name but just making a point wrote:
Obviously, posting Commissioner’s Corner three times was a good idea. And I thought Hartill made a mistake!
I see no reason to use names when discussing ideas. It detracts from the idea, people get lost in ownership. I’d be backing the skating rink 100% if I didn’t know ... was behind it. Seeing how contentious he is on KAST, his own forum and here I wouldn’t trust him to be able to negotiate with all of the necessary entities. If I didn’t know it was his idea, I’d be pushing my club to back it. I’d vote no names should be allowed and no personal attacks, even of public figures.
On Aug 13, 2:01 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
This will be multi-part post.
First off, DON’T worry so much about Patrick .... He is eccentric at times. Especially if people are focusing on the “not a very nice person ...”. Ok, “Assy ...”. Instead, focus on the “idea” and respect each other.
In fact, I’m willing to support this, myself.
On Aug 13, 2:05 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
I’ll be willing to prepare “Conceptual Drawings”. I may be a building designer BUT I am not an architect as defined by ORS 671. Such a structure will REQUIRE a registered Oregon licensed architect to prepare plans for permit review process.
I will also be willing to participate in planning and “program development”. I’ll later explain what that is if you are not familiar.
On Aug 13, 2:09 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
In short it would be a “Master Plan” and spatial program and a variety of site studies.
Patrick ... is a building designer like myself. He can assist in planning development but an architect would ultimately be needed for the project. This would also take multiple years just in the planning to be fair and open and transparent to the public and all stakeholders.
On Aug 13, 2:16 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
I am certain that if we work together without neccessity to enter communication and dialog without need for aliases then all the better. Trust does begin with removing “masks”. This can be in other mediums. But respect is important.
If we like, we should begin the first steps as soon as possible. We would want to seek funding and support as well.
On Aug 13, 2:21 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
I agree, with names are not important when discussing ideas but trust when preparing for a long haul in a passionate process will need knowing each other and respecting each other. Names isn’t a distracion if you don’t let it distract you. I can use names and it is not a distraction. Besides, we are discussing ideas. There isn’t an issue of ownership because we all be owning it, wouldn’t we? So what about the origin of idea the facioility would be the community’s.
On Aug 13, 2:42 PM, Toby wrote:
We must be important nobodies. He keeps posting to us.
What is Astoria doing with the Warren Field? I heard they were also purchasing a house in that area so that the whole block would be dedicated to some sort of sports complex. Anyone have anything more.
On Aug 13, 3:02 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
The house deal will probably be the house that Clatsop Community College bought in around 2006 and is selling and the aproval of its sale is happening during tonight’s college board meeting at 6:30 p.m. at the college library at the Jerome Ave. campus.
We might know some more answer on that.
On Aug 13, 3:36 PM, Patrick ... wrote:
On Aug 13, 1:44 PM, I’ve used my name but just making a point wrote:
Obviously, posting Commissioner’s Corner three times was a good idea. If I didn’t know it was his idea, I’d be pushing my club to back it. I’d vote no names should be allowed and no personal attacks, even of public figures.
I believe so strongly in this idea and if it would help this project get traction, please, take my name off it. I don’t care as long as it gets done and as quickly as possible.
On Aug 13, 3:46 PM, watching and considering wrote:
The consequences of acting w/o your tacit approval of every inch of development has been seen here over and over again. The knowledge that your hovering over this project makes me reluctant to touch a project of this magnitude (with its inherent complications, problems and need for diplomacy). Seeing the debacle resultant from the Aquatic Center boondoggle shows the need for not only astute planning but respected neighborhood leaders partnering to make this happen.
On Aug 13, 3:58 PM, Patrick ... wrote:
“Watching and Considering”...Did you read what I wrote above your post?
Obviously not but, I’m willing to wait a reasonable period of time before “I” form an organizing committee if you want to move first. Like I said I do not care who gets it done so long as it gets done...and soon.
And that Aquatic Center “Boondoggle?
The whole thing was concocted and orchestrated by your socalled “Neighborhood Leaders” you silly “pooh”!
On Aug 13, 4:45 PM, watching and considering wrote:
You have made my point.
On Aug 13, 4:56 PM, sara jean wrote:
Can the county commissioner help with affordable housing?
On Aug 13, 5:01 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Patrick, please stop fighting the anonymous fellows for a bit on regards to this project. This way, it can move forward. You have made several contributing comments that will be duly noted. You can obviously participate in the planning but fighting anonymous folks because they are using aliases instead of their names isn’t going to help but only cause distraction. Ok. Proceed with the battles on other topics but lets focus on the ideas. Alright?
On Aug 13, 5:16 PM, Patrick ... wrote:
Considering it’s you Rick, I’d be happy to.
How can I help?
On Aug 13, 7:22 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Right now, I think it is about organizing people with common insterest or compatible interest. Establishing a suitable medium to converse the ideas on the subject. I been too busy this evening to specifically have ideas how you may help but I think we all can work together in development of ideas and facilitation of some form of workshop.
On Aug 14, 12:28 AM, Dirty Dingus McGoo wrote:
Ann Samuelson wrote:
That’s a stark contrast to prison, where Noah would be released time and again with no support when he got out, and would immediately revert back to his criminal ways
There’s plenty of support available for those who seek it. This Tollefson fellow just wasnt looking for it. He had to be incarcerated several times before he got the message that the only one who could really keep him out of the slammer was himself.
On Aug 14, 12:34 AM, taylor sands wrote:
, Rick Balkins wrote:
I’ll be willing to prepare “Conceptual Drawings”
I will also be willing to participate in planning and “program development”.
Fine. Now, who do you and your partner ... plan on getting to pay for this skating rink that you erringly believe is needed to save Clatsop County from drug addiction? If you big operators think the local property tax payers are going get behind this then you are more wacko than actuall appear.
On Aug 14, 9:48 AM, Rick Balkins wrote:
I’m pretty certain that a tax levy/bond would NOT be the method to pay for this project. Just look at the college deal for the last three bond measures.
I’m not so much looking at it to “save Clatsop County from drug addiction”. It would likely have some impact. It would provide an avenue to do something instead of nothing which often lead some people into drug addiction at some point.
On Aug 14, 10:03 AM, Rick Balkins wrote:
First and formeost, the community has many tax levies/bonds on the plate to want to pay for this when we may be voting for the college bond and then there is the jail issue. So certainly funding a facility which would likely amount to 100,000 to 200,000 square ft. Thus, under current dollars, a project like this would cost upwards of $200-$250 per square foot (200,000 x $250 = $50,000,000).
On Aug 14, 10:04 AM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Which can amount to a project that would cost $75-80 Million (providing room for 30% overhead contingency and around $10 Million for landscaping and site development including parking)
This would be about 1/2 the amount for a 100,000 square foot facility.
Or $45 Million. In any case, the amount would be too much to have tax payers pay for this whole thing.
On Aug 14, 10:10 AM, Rick Balkins wrote:
So what do we do and how do we pay for this? We take a lesson from the college and do something similar to how they are funding the renovation of the current campus. Work to get grants and donations from a variety of sources to pay for the project. So if there is anything from the public to pay, it would be something small like $5 Million. However, it would be best if we don’t have to go to bonds.
Hopefully, this would be a public enterprise and not just a private venture.
On Aug 14, 10:21 AM, Sandy Traylure wrote:
If the facility is incorporated into the Warren Field project it can be paid for from the Urban Renewal monies, available to that area to rebuild and rejuvenate areas that are rundown and dilapitidated. Additional funding can be gained through offering billboard advertising, such as the ball field and the fairgrounds offer.
On Aug 14, 10:29 AM, Rick Balkins wrote:
There is a ways to reduce scale of the project. So let’s assume a more achievable scale, like 50,000-60,000 sq.ft. facility. It would reduce cost. Plus, cost control can make cost more acceptable.
So what would a 60,000 facility cost at $250 per sq.ft.
On Aug 14, 10:30 AM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Assuming the normal cost escalation and diligent contigency buffer - $25 Million for the building, $10 Million for site development and 30% contingency from the sum of building and site devleopment cost.
That would be $32.5 Million.
Considerably more managable if you look at the scale of what your actual needs are. Larger facility development can even be broken down into phases.
On Aug 14, 10:35 AM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Project cost can vary wildly depending on the strategies for funding and site choice. What stuff is adjacent to the site that already takes some of the cost down. A site adjacent to Shively Park would already so easily incorporate much of the site work for fields. So landscaping and site development cost could drop dratically.
Sizing the building will also be important. Plus, appropriate value engineering.
On Aug 14, 10:38 AM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Sandy brings up an interesting point. So, a devlopment that takes into consideration of already existing development and adds to it. Can be very positive and reduce cost of such facility development. When we consider the partners involved and the URD funding.
On Aug 14, 10:49 AM, Ted Johnson wrote:
there isn’t enough population base here to support and maintain such an expensive unnecessary extravagance-whether funding comes from public or private sources.
The overwhelming majority of young folks in Northwest communities- whether large urban centers, semi-urban, or small communities like ours -always manage to find something to do with their lives and free time that doesnt take them places like young Mr. Tollefson chose to go.
No sir, bread and circuses aren’t the answer to insidious social ills like hard drug addiction, alcoholism and crime.
On Aug 14, 11:07 AM, grandma wrote:
We used to have a skating rink, kids used it.
Yes sir, giving teens an outlet is needed.
The community came together to re-do tapiola for the younger children to enjoy. We have the skate park which is used.
The more the merrier.
On Aug 14, 11:30 AM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Ted,
The point of this project/concept isn’t to erradicate these insidious social ills like with a magic wand. It may give avenues that we don’t have. We need avenues that can get kids and even some adults away from the computer(playing video games) for part of their time. Not that there is anything wrong with playing computer games. Many kids these days spend so much time playing MMORPG (online games) that they don’t socialize with other kids in activities face to face. Hidden behind fictional characters.
On Aug 14, 11:58 AM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Keep in mind that the estimates above are rather loose figures and does not specifically reflect what the actual project would cost but relatively common price level of similar projects and the relative average cost per sq.ft. of structure. Plus what the math would be for different size structure/building development.
Before getting to concern with project/construction cost is really to gather together and formulate an initial meeting to discuss the project and what we would want in such a project and identifying potential sources of support and financial partners.
On Aug 14, 12:05 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
I just don’t want us to be blindsighted as to the cost of such a project to build as building any building isn’t cheap. We also have to keep in mind that if there is support and people will use this facility, we would have something in our community that can serve our community for decades and esily be re-configured for other types of uses at minimal cost if the use of such a facility does not take off.
On Aug 14, 12:27 PM, Lance wrote:
Good points, Rick. And balderdash Ted. 1950s and 1960s Astoria and surrounding environ had the Navy base w/its gym and sports arena as well as movie house, the cities had a skating rink, bowling allies and movie houses, the drive in. There were MULTIPLE sports teams and divisions for ALL ages. There was the YMCA with ALL of its programs. Before you say that we have a comperable program GO to the parks dept website and check out what we are offering. what SHOULD be available but no concept of what actually IS.
On Aug 14, 12:32 PM, Lance wrote:
A paltry FEW one day classes. The scouts organizations are down to about three active troups! Not for a lack of kids but a lack of Adults and mentors. Same with 4-H. Lack of volunteer adults.
The kids don’t have a concept of service and mentoring in the community because there aren’t a lot of examples of it. While we all have the tv version of Leave it to Beaver and Wonder Years in the 50s and 60s kids were SUPERVISED a lot by groups of adults. It wasn’t all play & riding bikes to the sandlots. It took a lot of commitment from a lot of adults that just isn’t there today.
On Aug 14, 12:41 PM, penny wrote:
Good, if unintended, pun Rick! Blindsighted is what many of us are when we want to force a project on a community that isn’t committed to the same thing we are. Blindsided is what we get hit with when they show up in force to stop something dead in its tracks. People say that our kids have it better now but it simply isn’t so. They lack the one thing that was in abundance in the 50s and 60s. People committed to kids with TIME. People giving THEMSELVES. Scout programs, ball teams, church youth groups, 4-H. You RARELY knew ANY kid that didn’t BELONG to something.
On Aug 14, 1:42 PM, Patrick ... wrote:
Remember too that the programs that would be offered with a facilty such as Rick is proposing is for everybody that chooses to use it or participate.
On Aug 14, 4:14 PM, Tom Kulongoski wrote:
I still fail to see the logic of how proposing some ridiculously expensive indoor arena is to help young people from becoming like Mr. Tolefson, prior to his being incarcerated enough to finally realize that a life of crime does not bring any rewards other than ever lengthening stays in state penal institutions.
On Aug 14, 5:15 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Every project can be ridiculously expensive if the size and scale is not fitted for the locality and oversized.
Now, what can a facility of the sort do for kids BEFORE they get into that crowd -> have something to do that builds self-esteem. Parents BEING parents not just adults who had a little bit of sexual activity and birthed a child or children. Parents taking the role of parents with passion and refraining from having sexual activities UNLESS they are ready to do the taskand responsibility of being parents and actually wanting to do that role.
On Aug 14, 5:22 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Often children seek attention wherever they can get it. The predators in our world then provide those kids with that “attention” but however with less then honorable and sick alterior motives. Then these kids get involved into the drug system. Some of these kids “befriends” other kids and draws them into the system.
The building and program provides an avenue for kids to be active ans build self-esteem and caring attention. Certainly, there are potential for less then honorable people to betray the trust of the community with our children.
On Aug 14, 5:27 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
That is why parents should be involved actively and we keep some types of people behind bar who are beyond the point of caring to be honest and trustworthy members of our community.
It is a piece of the puzzle but there are things that “money” can not address specifically. Keeping in mind that self-esteem is often a part of the issues with some of these kids getting into the wrong crowd. How wonderful does it sound with someone says, “they love you and care about you.” Yet, these can be lures to a trap.
On Aug 14, 5:30 PM, Betsy Witt wrote:
On Aug 14, 5:15 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Now, what can a facility of the sort do for kids BEFORE they get into that crowd -> have something to do that builds self-esteem.
I wonder why so many professional atheletes- generally people who have been catered to in their developmental years with structured programs, fancy facilities, scholarships, etc. still wind up using drugs and drink to the point of ruining their careers? Certainly many noted celebrity sportsmen had self esteem due to early success in their fields, but they still wind up strung out and locked up.
On Aug 14, 5:34 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
These projects can be value-engineered or scaled down in cost with potions of the building being $180/sq.ft. and other portions being at $250/sq.ft. The point also is that the cost of projects continue to go up with inflation. Figures that I am giving would be relative for with the next 5 years.
If this was to get off the ground and be built, we would want it to be of decent quality. Now wouldn’t we?
On Aug 14, 5:41 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Being catered to doesn’t mean good self-esteem. There can be other issues as well. I can not answer every single particular issue in one simple post. There is many issues and much again relates to issues with life. Sometimes, being pampered too much and put into the spotlight can also corrupt a person with arrogance and certain other psychological issues can occur that even with wealth and catering to, their true desire isn’t met. Some even do these things for publicity given so much “media attention” put on these issues. One building won’t address every issue.
On Aug 14, 5:47 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Many of these kids won’t be drug addicts for the same reasons that many of these issues that some of these professional athletes.
Also don’t confuse arrogance with self-esteem. It can be difficult to tell.
On Aug 14, 6:09 PM, Brad Marquis wrote:
If this was to get off the ground and be built, we would want it to be of decent quality. Now wouldn’t we?
Guess it depends on who the “we” is that’s paying for it.
Generally it’s the ones who aren’t contributing on the financial end that demand better quality from the public coffers. Like the people I see at the local groceries-they fill their carts with high end stuff that I cannot afford, wheel it out to a more expensive vehicle than I own, and they are using foodstamps, while I spend money I earn.
On Aug 14, 6:14 PM, Josh Johnson wrote:
On Aug 14, 5:47 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
Many of these kids won’t be drug addicts for the same reasons that many of these issues that some of these professional athletes.
B.S.
the reason they are addicts is because they use addictive drugs. Drug addiction respects no economic, social, educational or class boundaries. You do enough herion, coke or meth, you’ll become an addict. And all the ice rinks and publically funded toys will not curb that.
On Aug 14, 6:43 PM, Patrick ... wrote:
Anybody interested, below is the address for a perliminary of the multi-use arena side of a Community Center.
grassrootspeople.blogspot.com/2008/07/are-we-ready-for-new-multi-use.html
On Aug 14, 6:58 PM, not buying it wrote:
Sorry BM/JJ. love ya man, but I call royal BULLEXERCREMENT. I was on food stamps at one period of my life. I did eat steak, once. It was half price and it fed us for three days. And I did drive away in a d**n nice car, it was my grandpas that I was using because I was doing his shopping too. I got nasty looks as I paid for my half of the shopping with my food stamps and then his half with his money. And an old guy commented to me he sure wished public dole had been around when he was young so he could sit on his ass. A bunch of BS!
On Aug 14, 7:05 PM, not buying it wrote:
The rules for getting food stamps are stringent, sure there are ones that know how to play the system and slip through the cracks, but there are a hell of a lot LESS of these then there are of the corporations that get away with paying ZERO taxes. I get sick and tired of hearing about the supposed welfare individuals lazing around when the US has multimillionaires who live a lot fatter and freer off the Feds than any other person on the face of the earth.
Every single one of us is an addict. Most of us are LUCKY enough that we never come across what we are addicted to, or the thing we are addicted to hasn’t consumed our lives, yet, or isn’t illegal.
On Aug 14, 7:16 PM, Ted Witt wrote:
On Aug 14, 6:58 PM, not buying it wrote:
Sorry BM/JJ. love ya man, but I call royal BULLEXERCREMENT
d**n right you wern’t “buying it"(your food), the tax payers bought it for you. You probably spent your own cash on dope. But dont worry, it wasnt your fault you were on drugs, its the fault of the public for not providing you with a free multiuse “sports arena”. Don’t worry, though, those do gooders like ... feel your pain and want you to have free stuff so you’re not victim anymore
On Aug 14, 9:03 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
JJ: People don’t USE addictive drugs without FIRST being introduced to it. Duh. Of course they use it because it is addictive. The point being is curb the situation before they EVER use it and BEFORE they get addicted to it. PERIOD. Is that understood? Every weed has a root. Find the root then you can get rid of the weed.
There is a saying to drugs and that is “NO”. If their esteem is low and they are feeling lonely and unlistened to, kids might just be looking for an easy way out…
On Aug 14, 9:15 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
then someone who is “showing attention” (in the eyes of the kid) and befriends the kid and then gives the kid a sample. Saying something on the order of, this will help you threw your problem. Sad thing, most kids doesn’t know the difference between sugar and “angel dust” by appearance and some of the other illegal drugs. They might think some of these pills are just aspirin. They do make som of these drugs look like legal drugs by visual appearance.
There is many issues to be addressed in that topic.
On Aug 14, 9:22 PM, Rick Balkins wrote:
I’m not particularly interested in debating in circles on the issue about drug addiction and all that because we can agree that the facility will not by any way stop drug addiction completely or stop people who already are addicted to drugs. It can be a part of changing people’s lives and inspiration but that decision is and always will be that of the person who is addicted to decide to stop using the drugs. The facility however, can enrich the lives of kids and that could very well might prevent some kids from getting into the situation of drugs in the first place.
On Aug 14, 9:40 PM, Betsy Witt wrote:
Rick Balkins wrote:
we can agree that the facility will not by any way stop drug addiction ... The facility however, can enrich the lives of kids and that could very well might prevent some kids from getting into the situation of drugs in the first place.
Okay, it wont stop addiction and it “could” and “might” prevent some kid from using drugs. Sorry, “could” & “might” dont cut it. The purpose of Ms. Samuelson’s article was to illustrate one young man’s story-what worked for him. Someone else decided it should be about some ice rink. An ice rink doesnt have anything to do with corrections, treatment and rehab. Stay on topic please.
On Aug 14, 11:18 PM, sorry to disappoint you but wrote:
Never used “dope.” Tried it when I was a teen, long before I got cancer and went on food stamps, briefly, but I never bought it. I’ve paid much more into the system so that multimillion dollar corporations can get their tax breaks, multimillionaires can evade their taxes, so that those who started getting their social security at 67 and are in their 90s can keep on collecting it, along with the school teachers, state college professors, district attorneys, and all the rest of the state and federal workers and the retired coast guard, navy, army, marines and air force can continue to get their monthly checks. Since you know so much about the “welfare” system, tell me how long it is someone can stay on food stamps now adays.
Actually, the corner was about what we would like to see our commishes provide our community or questions we had for them. This community needs a community center. Its inspiring that people start talking here and get excited about being involved in a process.
On Aug 14, 11:57 PM, Jack Futch wrote:
Actually, the corner was about what we would like to see our commishes provide our community....
Really? Then I must have read a different article by Ann Samuelson than the one you read. The one I read noted the positive results of our progressive Corrections Dept., coupled with Drug Court, have had with rehabilitating criminals who actually want to straighten up. Nowhere in that article did I see Ms. Samuelson tell anyone to make up a Santa Claus list. She attempted to show that there is some good going on, but some children misread it and decided they should start babbling about an ice rink which has nothing to do with the subject. ... and Balkins dont get it and probably never will.
Samuelson does.
On Aug 15, 12:43 AM, Josh Freel wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:13 PM, Patrick ... wrote:
The next time there’s one of those staged “Town Halls” with all the Bureaucrats and presumed experts, Mr. Tolefson and Balda should the first contacted to participate as the “Real Experts”.
Again ... willingly shows his ignorance. The only expertise Mssrs. Balda & Tolefson have demonstrated is in hard core criminality. The real experts are people like Cora Lane, Barry Hazel, & Phil Nelson. It’s they and their contemporaries who design, implement and monitor these progressive behavior modification programs designed for habitual offenders. Crime and criminals like Balda & Tolefson are a bane on civilized society. Corrections is the science used to eliminate it.
On Aug 15, 1:56 AM, Rick Balkins wrote:
The Commissioner Corner itself is about the Commissioner connecting more with the public and public connecting with the commissioner.
The article itself was indeed a section about a particular case. However, the thread has deviated in many ways.
I’m particularly am interested in moving this community center subject onto another forum. If we can be happier that way, great.
That should be enough to bring everyone up to speed
